I'm sure I was far ruder than I intended to be (which was not at all) but I am glad for your thoughtful reply. I visited Jerusalem more than once, and the guides on site explained that the Dome of the Rock was built (and I affirm that its architecture is thoroughly Muslim) to commemorate Muhammad's night-time visit to (I do forget whethe…
I'm sure I was far ruder than I intended to be (which was not at all) but I am glad for your thoughtful reply. I visited Jerusalem more than once, and the guides on site explained that the Dome of the Rock was built (and I affirm that its architecture is thoroughly Muslim) to commemorate Muhammad's night-time visit to (I do forget whether it was to one, several, or the Third) heaven. I understand that one of Muhammad's wives questioned whether Muhammad actually went to Jerusalem and thence to heaven, but the imprint he is said to have left on the rock was quite deep and is counted as proof that he was actually there. Listen, though, I do not want to say anything more, lest I offend Muslims, for I mean no disrespect to their traditions or beliefs. (And dear me, I may be confusing the Dome of the Rock, which I remember as the name of the gold-domed building dominating Temple Mount; whereas the rock which is the center of (I almost said of worship in the Hajj, but that would be wrong) the Hajj is housed in an impressive black cube in Mecca, which name I forget--sorry, run-on sentence lost the point!)
I'll risk again offending you, though I really do hope not to offend but to encourage you to genuinely seek. You posted: To be honest, I have never read the Bible, but I have read many sources about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the point I believe I know the Cliff Notes version. My parents were not religious and I never attended church or Sunday school, but they did indicate I could make up my own mind regarding religion. Unfortunately for believers such as yourself, by age 8, for me the secular die was cast.
And to a great extent, you validate my point that by learning second- or third-hand without reading the source materials, the eyewitness- and nearly eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, you don't see more there than the Cliffs Notes version. I never understood either the facts or reality of Christianity until I was 18. I urge you to keep exploring, especially in one or more of the many excellent modern translations of the oriiginal accounts.
Sorry, David, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree about our respective religious views. I could provide a dozen or more book references critical of the scriptural materials in which you have such faith, but I doubt either of us is going to be persuaded by admonitions from the other.
I do believe I have found a position "half way there" to "maybe" explain some of it, from a secular and "scientific" side. I realized in the last few years (the obvious fact) that my very intelligent but also deeply religious friends were not "stupid superstitious" people, which was my previous thought that I had and kept to myself for many years (still do basically). I now posit that our brains/ minds evolved to contain networks/modules/whatever for both (1) logical rationality and for (2) a faith-based satisfaction of a desire for transcendence. Each evolved capability (along with many others?) has helped early and later hominids survive, perhaps via improved tool making (our improved teeth and claws, as it were) and greater trust and cooperation with other group members who had the same faith orientation. The less logical the faith-based views, the greater trust in those who still hold them in concert with yourself, possibly overriding the logical resistance provided by observation and experience.
As with many other mental and physical characteristics, these two also exist along a spectrum of stronger to weaker in each of us [depending on nature and nurture???]. History and experience has shown many people move from one position to another along this spectrum over their lifetimes (faith to faith, belief to nonbelief, or vice versa, etc.). You and I are clearly spread apart on that faith component spectrum, along with many others. [I presume we are still relatively close on the intelligence spectrum. ]
So for me, from a young age, I saw no credibility in miracles, virgin birth, resurrection, divine influences, prayer, etc.; and low credibility for life after death, although there might "somehow" still be an uncaused first cause???? Darwin and cosmology have pretty well decimated Genesis as "historical" or anything other than allegorical/metaphorical. But I have come to recognize and accept the value and "wisdom" of the Jewish and Pauline (??) ideas impacting past and modern Western culture, including the Golden Rule and our current views on liberty and personal human rights.
So, "peace on earth and good will towards men ... " [oh, and the truly feminine women, too :-)]
[I will make this my last post/comment on this thread.]
I'm sure I was far ruder than I intended to be (which was not at all) but I am glad for your thoughtful reply. I visited Jerusalem more than once, and the guides on site explained that the Dome of the Rock was built (and I affirm that its architecture is thoroughly Muslim) to commemorate Muhammad's night-time visit to (I do forget whether it was to one, several, or the Third) heaven. I understand that one of Muhammad's wives questioned whether Muhammad actually went to Jerusalem and thence to heaven, but the imprint he is said to have left on the rock was quite deep and is counted as proof that he was actually there. Listen, though, I do not want to say anything more, lest I offend Muslims, for I mean no disrespect to their traditions or beliefs. (And dear me, I may be confusing the Dome of the Rock, which I remember as the name of the gold-domed building dominating Temple Mount; whereas the rock which is the center of (I almost said of worship in the Hajj, but that would be wrong) the Hajj is housed in an impressive black cube in Mecca, which name I forget--sorry, run-on sentence lost the point!)
I'll risk again offending you, though I really do hope not to offend but to encourage you to genuinely seek. You posted: To be honest, I have never read the Bible, but I have read many sources about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the point I believe I know the Cliff Notes version. My parents were not religious and I never attended church or Sunday school, but they did indicate I could make up my own mind regarding religion. Unfortunately for believers such as yourself, by age 8, for me the secular die was cast.
And to a great extent, you validate my point that by learning second- or third-hand without reading the source materials, the eyewitness- and nearly eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, you don't see more there than the Cliffs Notes version. I never understood either the facts or reality of Christianity until I was 18. I urge you to keep exploring, especially in one or more of the many excellent modern translations of the oriiginal accounts.
Sorry, David, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree about our respective religious views. I could provide a dozen or more book references critical of the scriptural materials in which you have such faith, but I doubt either of us is going to be persuaded by admonitions from the other.
I do believe I have found a position "half way there" to "maybe" explain some of it, from a secular and "scientific" side. I realized in the last few years (the obvious fact) that my very intelligent but also deeply religious friends were not "stupid superstitious" people, which was my previous thought that I had and kept to myself for many years (still do basically). I now posit that our brains/ minds evolved to contain networks/modules/whatever for both (1) logical rationality and for (2) a faith-based satisfaction of a desire for transcendence. Each evolved capability (along with many others?) has helped early and later hominids survive, perhaps via improved tool making (our improved teeth and claws, as it were) and greater trust and cooperation with other group members who had the same faith orientation. The less logical the faith-based views, the greater trust in those who still hold them in concert with yourself, possibly overriding the logical resistance provided by observation and experience.
[see next comment]
[continued from above]
As with many other mental and physical characteristics, these two also exist along a spectrum of stronger to weaker in each of us [depending on nature and nurture???]. History and experience has shown many people move from one position to another along this spectrum over their lifetimes (faith to faith, belief to nonbelief, or vice versa, etc.). You and I are clearly spread apart on that faith component spectrum, along with many others. [I presume we are still relatively close on the intelligence spectrum. ]
So for me, from a young age, I saw no credibility in miracles, virgin birth, resurrection, divine influences, prayer, etc.; and low credibility for life after death, although there might "somehow" still be an uncaused first cause???? Darwin and cosmology have pretty well decimated Genesis as "historical" or anything other than allegorical/metaphorical. But I have come to recognize and accept the value and "wisdom" of the Jewish and Pauline (??) ideas impacting past and modern Western culture, including the Golden Rule and our current views on liberty and personal human rights.
So, "peace on earth and good will towards men ... " [oh, and the truly feminine women, too :-)]
[I will make this my last post/comment on this thread.]