I don't have the credentials to dispute your 1-4 above, but I would suggest that the Alexandrian library was sacked well before 750. Be that as it may, I would challenge some of your statements relating Islam to Christian roots. I'll be so forward as to suggest that you invest time and thought getting familiar with Jewish and Christian s…
I don't have the credentials to dispute your 1-4 above, but I would suggest that the Alexandrian library was sacked well before 750. Be that as it may, I would challenge some of your statements relating Islam to Christian roots. I'll be so forward as to suggest that you invest time and thought getting familiar with Jewish and Christian source documents, and especially that you will consider the sine qua non of Christian belief, that Jesus lived, died, and rose again. Muhammad is apparently buried in Madina, near some or all of his wives....
David, I saw this comment last night but decided to wait overnight to let my head clear before responding. I was rather annoyed at the disrespect of "I'll be so forward as to suggest that you invest time and thought getting familiar ... " To be honest, I have never read the Bible, but I have read many sources about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the point I believe I know the Cliff Notes version. My parents were not religious and I never attended church or Sunday school, but they did indicate I could make up my own mind regarding religion. Unfortunately for believers such as yourself, by age 8, for me the secular die was cast.
My credentials regarding Islam (or most things) are also modest, which is why I pointed to the Jay Smith You Tube series. But my understanding is that the Alexandrian library was sacked by Christians to destroy earlier pagan thinking and ideas, not by Muslims, although the Arabs did then overrun North Africa in the 600's CE or later. It appears you also did not understand the pro-Christian position that the Dome of the Rock was probably originally used for Christian worship, only later appropriated for Islamic use. From what I have read, I have strong doubts that Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad ever existed as actual historical real people, while the ideologies/ religions adopted in their names advanced the political aims of various kings, priests, and caliphs. But doubts are not certainties, so I try to keep an open mind, but not an emptied one.
I now hope to keep this shorter than my initial intent, so I will forego a discussion of the probable coexistence of brain elements and psychological features supporting both faith based and intellectual and logical analysis capabilities in the human "mind".
I'm sure I was far ruder than I intended to be (which was not at all) but I am glad for your thoughtful reply. I visited Jerusalem more than once, and the guides on site explained that the Dome of the Rock was built (and I affirm that its architecture is thoroughly Muslim) to commemorate Muhammad's night-time visit to (I do forget whether it was to one, several, or the Third) heaven. I understand that one of Muhammad's wives questioned whether Muhammad actually went to Jerusalem and thence to heaven, but the imprint he is said to have left on the rock was quite deep and is counted as proof that he was actually there. Listen, though, I do not want to say anything more, lest I offend Muslims, for I mean no disrespect to their traditions or beliefs. (And dear me, I may be confusing the Dome of the Rock, which I remember as the name of the gold-domed building dominating Temple Mount; whereas the rock which is the center of (I almost said of worship in the Hajj, but that would be wrong) the Hajj is housed in an impressive black cube in Mecca, which name I forget--sorry, run-on sentence lost the point!)
I'll risk again offending you, though I really do hope not to offend but to encourage you to genuinely seek. You posted: To be honest, I have never read the Bible, but I have read many sources about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the point I believe I know the Cliff Notes version. My parents were not religious and I never attended church or Sunday school, but they did indicate I could make up my own mind regarding religion. Unfortunately for believers such as yourself, by age 8, for me the secular die was cast.
And to a great extent, you validate my point that by learning second- or third-hand without reading the source materials, the eyewitness- and nearly eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, you don't see more there than the Cliffs Notes version. I never understood either the facts or reality of Christianity until I was 18. I urge you to keep exploring, especially in one or more of the many excellent modern translations of the oriiginal accounts.
Sorry, David, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree about our respective religious views. I could provide a dozen or more book references critical of the scriptural materials in which you have such faith, but I doubt either of us is going to be persuaded by admonitions from the other.
I do believe I have found a position "half way there" to "maybe" explain some of it, from a secular and "scientific" side. I realized in the last few years (the obvious fact) that my very intelligent but also deeply religious friends were not "stupid superstitious" people, which was my previous thought that I had and kept to myself for many years (still do basically). I now posit that our brains/ minds evolved to contain networks/modules/whatever for both (1) logical rationality and for (2) a faith-based satisfaction of a desire for transcendence. Each evolved capability (along with many others?) has helped early and later hominids survive, perhaps via improved tool making (our improved teeth and claws, as it were) and greater trust and cooperation with other group members who had the same faith orientation. The less logical the faith-based views, the greater trust in those who still hold them in concert with yourself, possibly overriding the logical resistance provided by observation and experience.
As with many other mental and physical characteristics, these two also exist along a spectrum of stronger to weaker in each of us [depending on nature and nurture???]. History and experience has shown many people move from one position to another along this spectrum over their lifetimes (faith to faith, belief to nonbelief, or vice versa, etc.). You and I are clearly spread apart on that faith component spectrum, along with many others. [I presume we are still relatively close on the intelligence spectrum. ]
So for me, from a young age, I saw no credibility in miracles, virgin birth, resurrection, divine influences, prayer, etc.; and low credibility for life after death, although there might "somehow" still be an uncaused first cause???? Darwin and cosmology have pretty well decimated Genesis as "historical" or anything other than allegorical/metaphorical. But I have come to recognize and accept the value and "wisdom" of the Jewish and Pauline (??) ideas impacting past and modern Western culture, including the Golden Rule and our current views on liberty and personal human rights.
So, "peace on earth and good will towards men ... " [oh, and the truly feminine women, too :-)]
[I will make this my last post/comment on this thread.]
I don't have the credentials to dispute your 1-4 above, but I would suggest that the Alexandrian library was sacked well before 750. Be that as it may, I would challenge some of your statements relating Islam to Christian roots. I'll be so forward as to suggest that you invest time and thought getting familiar with Jewish and Christian source documents, and especially that you will consider the sine qua non of Christian belief, that Jesus lived, died, and rose again. Muhammad is apparently buried in Madina, near some or all of his wives....
David, I saw this comment last night but decided to wait overnight to let my head clear before responding. I was rather annoyed at the disrespect of "I'll be so forward as to suggest that you invest time and thought getting familiar ... " To be honest, I have never read the Bible, but I have read many sources about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the point I believe I know the Cliff Notes version. My parents were not religious and I never attended church or Sunday school, but they did indicate I could make up my own mind regarding religion. Unfortunately for believers such as yourself, by age 8, for me the secular die was cast.
My credentials regarding Islam (or most things) are also modest, which is why I pointed to the Jay Smith You Tube series. But my understanding is that the Alexandrian library was sacked by Christians to destroy earlier pagan thinking and ideas, not by Muslims, although the Arabs did then overrun North Africa in the 600's CE or later. It appears you also did not understand the pro-Christian position that the Dome of the Rock was probably originally used for Christian worship, only later appropriated for Islamic use. From what I have read, I have strong doubts that Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad ever existed as actual historical real people, while the ideologies/ religions adopted in their names advanced the political aims of various kings, priests, and caliphs. But doubts are not certainties, so I try to keep an open mind, but not an emptied one.
I now hope to keep this shorter than my initial intent, so I will forego a discussion of the probable coexistence of brain elements and psychological features supporting both faith based and intellectual and logical analysis capabilities in the human "mind".
I'm sure I was far ruder than I intended to be (which was not at all) but I am glad for your thoughtful reply. I visited Jerusalem more than once, and the guides on site explained that the Dome of the Rock was built (and I affirm that its architecture is thoroughly Muslim) to commemorate Muhammad's night-time visit to (I do forget whether it was to one, several, or the Third) heaven. I understand that one of Muhammad's wives questioned whether Muhammad actually went to Jerusalem and thence to heaven, but the imprint he is said to have left on the rock was quite deep and is counted as proof that he was actually there. Listen, though, I do not want to say anything more, lest I offend Muslims, for I mean no disrespect to their traditions or beliefs. (And dear me, I may be confusing the Dome of the Rock, which I remember as the name of the gold-domed building dominating Temple Mount; whereas the rock which is the center of (I almost said of worship in the Hajj, but that would be wrong) the Hajj is housed in an impressive black cube in Mecca, which name I forget--sorry, run-on sentence lost the point!)
I'll risk again offending you, though I really do hope not to offend but to encourage you to genuinely seek. You posted: To be honest, I have never read the Bible, but I have read many sources about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the point I believe I know the Cliff Notes version. My parents were not religious and I never attended church or Sunday school, but they did indicate I could make up my own mind regarding religion. Unfortunately for believers such as yourself, by age 8, for me the secular die was cast.
And to a great extent, you validate my point that by learning second- or third-hand without reading the source materials, the eyewitness- and nearly eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, you don't see more there than the Cliffs Notes version. I never understood either the facts or reality of Christianity until I was 18. I urge you to keep exploring, especially in one or more of the many excellent modern translations of the oriiginal accounts.
Sorry, David, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree about our respective religious views. I could provide a dozen or more book references critical of the scriptural materials in which you have such faith, but I doubt either of us is going to be persuaded by admonitions from the other.
I do believe I have found a position "half way there" to "maybe" explain some of it, from a secular and "scientific" side. I realized in the last few years (the obvious fact) that my very intelligent but also deeply religious friends were not "stupid superstitious" people, which was my previous thought that I had and kept to myself for many years (still do basically). I now posit that our brains/ minds evolved to contain networks/modules/whatever for both (1) logical rationality and for (2) a faith-based satisfaction of a desire for transcendence. Each evolved capability (along with many others?) has helped early and later hominids survive, perhaps via improved tool making (our improved teeth and claws, as it were) and greater trust and cooperation with other group members who had the same faith orientation. The less logical the faith-based views, the greater trust in those who still hold them in concert with yourself, possibly overriding the logical resistance provided by observation and experience.
[see next comment]
[continued from above]
As with many other mental and physical characteristics, these two also exist along a spectrum of stronger to weaker in each of us [depending on nature and nurture???]. History and experience has shown many people move from one position to another along this spectrum over their lifetimes (faith to faith, belief to nonbelief, or vice versa, etc.). You and I are clearly spread apart on that faith component spectrum, along with many others. [I presume we are still relatively close on the intelligence spectrum. ]
So for me, from a young age, I saw no credibility in miracles, virgin birth, resurrection, divine influences, prayer, etc.; and low credibility for life after death, although there might "somehow" still be an uncaused first cause???? Darwin and cosmology have pretty well decimated Genesis as "historical" or anything other than allegorical/metaphorical. But I have come to recognize and accept the value and "wisdom" of the Jewish and Pauline (??) ideas impacting past and modern Western culture, including the Golden Rule and our current views on liberty and personal human rights.
So, "peace on earth and good will towards men ... " [oh, and the truly feminine women, too :-)]
[I will make this my last post/comment on this thread.]